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catwoman980
Dec. 29th, 2010 08:46 am (UTC)
Re: :P
Um, also--if your harem was populated by folks who didn't have much of a choice in being there, and your billion dollar trust was provided through war crimes and human rights violations, then you would be a lunatic not to turn them down.

That's the problem with privilege, really. Not thinking about where it comes from or how it affects those who don't have it. It's not bad to have a billion dollars, but it's not good if that billion dollars was acquired through human suffering. Privilege isn't bad unless you don't stop to think whether or not you're hurting anybody with it from time to time and try to at least minimize that. No one can get rid of it completely, but it's something to at least try to be as responsible as one can be given their circumstances.
agent139
Dec. 29th, 2010 08:56 am (UTC)
Re: :P
I think we can safely assume that someone was hurt or at least taken advantage of along the way for any such considerable fortune.

The reality is I wouldn't have a forced harem-- aside from the ethical issues it just wouldn't do it for me. Same reason I couldn't pay for sex. I get off on free will, go figure.

But there's no natural law that enforces the sort of moral structure you're talking about here. My point is, the people who AREN'T concerned about these things are going to be just fine to continue going dancing on the backs of the poor, as they always have. And the liberal middle class and academics can continue to be concerned with the ethos of privilege. No one gets a reward for being responsible in such a way. Those who could give a toss certainly about to, and the idea that we can educate everyone into agreeing with us is, well, sadly another compelling liberal fantasy. I loved The West Wing too, and tend to fall pretty far on the liberal side of the spectrum when it comes to most "issues," but I've also been coming to the conclusion, more and more, that the stances involved in holding those beliefs are inherently insular and disenfranchising.

And the fact remains, when it comes to a billion dollar fortune, I would probably invest a fair amount of it into education incentives and God knows what else, but I still would say "better me than the other guy."

Of course it's moot, because I'm an artist and a writer, and everyone knows we die poor.

To bring this back to the actual topic - When it comes to polyamory, the times I've been involved in a triad with two bisexual girls have been the most pleasant, and - for the most part - most mutually enjoyable arrangements. Is it some sort of privilege? I don't know, but it's sure as hell less messy than what I have going on in my life right now. I'd rather be privileged than miserable. What about you?
catwoman980
Dec. 29th, 2010 09:21 am (UTC)
Re: :P
I've never seen the west wing.

Well, I've seen a youtube clip where a dude recites a letter that circulated on the internet a few years before the episode was written at some lady who was apparently supposed to be a parody of Dr. Laura or something.

Considering that, and that I'm currently in a one-penis-only-open-marriage where I've quite happily had sex and relationships with several other girls (both in and out of a triad dynamic) because that's what I prefer and because it makes my husband more comfortable which means the whole thing is totally informed by male privilege and we're both completely aware of that and ok with it, I can only conclude that your comment doesn't have a whole lot to do with mine.

You seem to like comics. Was it bad that spidey had super powers? No. It was pretty fucking awesome. Was it awesome when he didn't give a shit about anybody but himself and Uncle Ben got killed? Not so much. If Stan Lee gets it, you can too. Much like the comic is better when Parker isn't full of angst (or clones), liberalism is better without the paralyzing guilt and angst too!
agent139
Dec. 29th, 2010 09:25 am (UTC)
Re: :P
Well, I certainly agree with this part "Much like the comic is better when Parker isn't full of angst (or clones), liberalism is better without the paralyzing guilt and angst too!"

Never much into Spider Man. Only comics I really enjoyed are the 90s vertigo type ones. Sandman, Invisibles, Transmetro, Promethea, etc.

I just don't think your agreement is "informed by male privilege" so much as it is something you both choose to do. It generally makes the situation more workable, whether or not it is ALWAYS what YOU want to do. But you're right, I'm not trying to level some sort of argument against you. For starters, I don't know you. ;p
catwoman980
Dec. 29th, 2010 09:41 am (UTC)
Re: :P
It is. He's uncomfortable with it because he's uncomfortable with the notion of me being with other men because other men = threat and other women = hot. He's the one who told me it was irrational and that it came from that place. Two girls is a fantasy even if he's not around for it, another dude is icky even if he's not involved at all. I even offered that maybe it's just that he's not attracted to dudes and he told me that wasn't it, it's just the emotional territoriality that women don't infringe on because that's not really what we're brought up to feel.

The fact, however, that he's aware that it comes from some pretty sexist places means that we discussed it and he was really open and honest about it rather than defensive and controlling. Recognizing where it came from didn't automatically mean we had to reject it, it just meant we knew. So, I didn't feel resentful, he articulated his feelings and fears, we both felt more secure about the whole thing, and minus a few bumps it's been pretty awesome. It also works out because I'm attracted to something like half the girls I interact with and maybe 1 out of 100 dudes I interact with. If I was closer to a 3 on the kinsey it may feel more unfair and we might have to unpack the issue a bit more.

Mostly it just means that we have to be a little mindful that my relationships with girls are respected as not being a porno fantasy, and involve another human being who I care about on some level. It also makes us more open about establishing clarity on his level of involvement and the other girl and I's level of emotional involvement with each other and him. Stuff people should really do anyway.

Being aware of privilege really just means not being a douche. Knowing when your actions might have an effect on the people around you, being considerate, stuff like that. There are very few circumstances in which privilege even can be outright rejected so thinking about whether or not one should is vaguely moot.
agent139
Dec. 29th, 2010 03:14 pm (UTC)
Re: :P
I don't know about guys being icky but we do resort to direct conflict rather quickly.

Anyway, the way you define privilege makes sense to me-- but it certainly isn't the "talking down your nose" sense in which it usually used. Every time I've heard it, it's been a verbal attempt at turning the tables, and making one feel superior than someone who is luckier, better connected, or simply more brutal than they are. If everyone had the same regard for it you seem to I doubt that would come through so much.
trinker
Dec. 29th, 2010 05:26 pm (UTC)
Re: :P
"ZOMG, "privilege", what-EVER" thing is deployed as a derailment tactic no matter how the term was intended.
catwoman980
Dec. 29th, 2010 07:08 pm (UTC)
Re: :P
Everyone I know who's discussing privilege in terms of power dynamics in a sociological (or civil rights) sense does have the same regard for it that I do.

Pretty much the only people I ever hear say that privilege is always bad are people who frame it as "Feminists/liberals/activists/people of color say privilege is bad and should be rejected and I think that's too simple!" It's a strawman. Since the underlying concept necessarily states that it's not something that can be gotten rid of or rejected completely (as things are now), only people who aren't familiar with the concept would say such things.
agent139
Dec. 29th, 2010 07:12 pm (UTC)
Re: :P
I AM familiar with the concept (I was raised by lesbians and went to Bard college for christs sake, a liberal arts school that has been said to "put the liberal back in liberal arts") and I still think that as it is generally used in academic circles, they may say one thing but they're acting on an emotional impulse which is quite another. Don't be quite so quick to make assumptione about another's assumptions. ;p
(Deleted comment)
catwoman980
Dec. 30th, 2010 08:56 pm (UTC)
Re: :P
Yes
Yes
Yes it is
Yes i was. Yes there are
Ok?
It is