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(Deleted comment)
trinker
Dec. 31st, 2010 02:01 am (UTC)
. It's not at all what I'd call polyamory though. Can't we just call it swinging? Since they are supposedly the more rule based group.

Let people self-ident, eh? A lot of those people will tell you that they are *not* swingers, they're poly, or "open", or whatever.
(Deleted comment)
trinker
Dec. 31st, 2010 02:12 am (UTC)
o.O ?!

You don't self-ident as poly, but you feel like you should have a say in whether other people do?!

And...what makes you think that poly people don't have rules in their relationships? Or that what defines swingers is whether they have rules or not?
(Deleted comment)
trinker
Dec. 31st, 2010 09:01 am (UTC)
People identify as poly and swinging and open and all sorts of other labels without necessarily falling into neat categories.

As far as *I* have observed...poly rules apply to who one has *relationships* with, and of what form. Meanwhile, you said, "I mean if they are going to have all kinds of rules and restrictions then is it really poly anymore?" and "Can't we just call it swinging? Since they are supposedly the more rule based group."

Looks to me like you're saying, "if you have rules and restrictions, it's not poly, it's swinging, and you're labeling wrong!"

p.s. - "We don't live in an oppressive society." Who you including in your "we" there? Must be nice, living in that society.
(Deleted comment)
trinker
Dec. 31st, 2010 10:31 am (UTC)
Privilege. You're *steeping* in it.

Nice poly pedestal you've built there, but it's your own fantasy construct. It's not some gold medal you can hang on someone for being "evolved enough", or whatever definition you want to stick on it.

What *is* your definition of this fantastic no-limits poly? The ultimate in free love? Poly-fi doesn't fit there, evidently.

Poly-identified people are as fucked up as anyone else, in similar proportions. It would be nice if that weren't so.

I'm cool with people saying, "that's not how *I* (want to) do poly..." but when someone says, "I don't ident as poly, and neither should $that_person..." That, I have a beef with, and I'm pretty sure a bunch of other people do, too. I'm sorry to tell you that your PolySantaToothFairy doesn't exist, but it's as much of a PolyUnicorn as the ultimate non-problematic HBB fantasy.

I should correct my statement about oppressive society. There is obviously oppression, but not the kind of overt oppression in other societies or previous times. Its certainly a struggle to live an alternative life style, but not impossible.

I'm guessing that you're not a parent, or a schoolteacher, or in a lot of other categories that don't have the privilege that a (single?) (het?) cismale does as far as non-mainstream relationships.

I struggle with finding what I want, but I don't blame social oppression for it. Yeah. Because *YOU* are privileged. Go seinneann_ceoil's comment here, she did a great job of laying it out. Privilege doesn't have to noticeably impinge on *your* circumstances to be real, and worth examining.
(Deleted comment)
trinker
Dec. 31st, 2010 11:38 am (UTC)
I strongly suspect you have more privileges than I do, although I may have privileges that you don't.

You have been continually shrugging off how much societal norms can *hurt* people, and that it's not so simple as a matter of *ignoring* or *transcending* them.

I'm not in a one-penis relationship. I never have been. But this discussion about labels and self-identity and privilege has only been bound by that particular scenario in your mind, if any.

I'm leaving this conversation here, because I am starting to become angry about having issues I haven't bared here in a public discussion dismissed as if they were delusions on my part, and I'm not willing to reveal those issues and expose those vulnerable disprivileges just to prove a point.
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(no subject) - trinker - Dec. 31st, 2010 11:50 am (UTC) - Expand
seinneann_ceoil
Dec. 31st, 2010 10:39 am (UTC)
I should correct my statement about oppressive society. There is obviously oppression, but not the kind of overt oppression in other societies or previous times. Its certainly a struggle to live an alternative life style, but not impossible. It's certainly easier now than it was even 10 years ago. I'm not counting utah, or the bible belt or my fathers house. :P

I struggle with finding what I want, but I don't blame social oppression for it. Sure its there and it acts as a hand of fate, but I can fight it. I'm not sure what good it even does me if I had something to blame it on.


Are you white?

Do you not think that people who are not white may have a very different experience of oppression in our society than you do?
(Deleted comment)
seinneann_ceoil
Dec. 31st, 2010 11:06 am (UTC)
Unfortunately, there are other people for whom their race isn't an whole different ballgame, even as it intersects with poly sexuality. These things come into play for many people even when SPECIFICALLY limited to poly sexuality.

But I think the main point to this is that when you say that there isn't that much oppression (in this case, you're talking about people's freedom to live different sexual alternative lifestyles) in society because you've not experienced a great deal of oppression, you are effectively discounting the experiences of many others who probably have.

When you say something like

I struggle with finding what I want, but I don't blame social oppression for it. Sure its there and it acts as a hand of fate, but I can fight it. I'm not sure what good it even does me if I had something to blame it on.

you are implying that because you don't blame social oppression, others shouldn't either. It's also kind of implying that others shouldn't look to the conditions of privilege that are affecting their situation (either positively or negatively).

Now, that may not have been your intent in saying such a thing, but it's entirely reasonable for someone in a different position than you to see it that way.

When you compare the amount of oppression we face in the west compared to a place like Uganda (where gay people are being chased down and executed), of course we can say that we don't deal with that level of oppression. But I would really think carefully about making blanket statements about how easy or difficult things can be for other people based upon your own experiences. You can be sure that there are other people experiencing the same thing with far less privilege (for various reasons) so I find it best to not assume that their challenges are the same as mine.
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - seinneann_ceoil - Dec. 31st, 2010 11:41 am (UTC) - Expand
(Deleted comment)
(no subject) - seinneann_ceoil - Dec. 31st, 2010 12:10 pm (UTC) - Expand